Forum
Client
Hi
I've been working as a CH with LogoTournament for over 6 months and have run two successful competitions and had excellent interactions with the talented designers on this site during that time. Always without a hitch.
Consequently I have recommended this place to friends, colleagues - tweeted it etc and I know some of them have also come here for their logo's.
So imagine my surprise today that less than 24 hours into a competition (30under30) following my initial ranking I get flamed by an irate designer whom I'd had no previous contact with?
The first message reads:
Subject: wow Im out of this contest
May 16th, 2009, 3:41am
you have the worst taste I ever have seen !! cant believe who you put up top and chose not I unbelievable!!
So I reply:
May 16th, 2009, 3:52am
Thank you for your comments.
We are less than 1 day into a 7 day contest and I'm simply indicating a direction based on the submissions received so far. None of the submissions are even close to what I am looking for and having run 2 successful competitions on this system I think I know what I am doing.
By rejecting certain submissions I provide the design community on this site with an indication of what is not working. By ranking and keeping certain submissions then a good designer will be able to gain an understanding of what is required.
Maybe you just didn't understand the brief - this is commercial design, it's not art. It is for a purpose. If you don't understand this you may be following the wrong career path. Flaming your clients is not an appropriate response.
Have a good day and good luck
Graham
To which they respond:
May 16th, 2009, 3:59am
commercial design, look at what i did and your #1 pick thats all i have to say sorry Im just not for this contest its just conpare to your #1 pick right now is so wack in not at all commercial and i have ben doing this for over 10 years and trust me I know I flaming this contest because looking at your pick I know Im out.
thanks
To be fair to the excited designer they perhaps thought the better of it and followed up with:
May 16th, 2009, 4:04am
sorry thats just how I feel no hard feeling you are the CH you should have what you want sorry Im out of pocket good luck in your contest i guess it just not for me :)
But I must say, emoticon or not, that as a CH and indeed a CH that has come back for multiple contests this sort of behaviour is unacceptable, particularly as I am entering into the spirit of the site by regularly ranking and commenting - which when you're up to over 200 entries takes a considerable amount of time also. I think it also shows a huge lack of respect for the other designers who are part of this community.
If this had been my first experience of LT I would have:
a) closed the contest and demanded a refund
b) told others
What do people think about this?
Graham
I've been working as a CH with LogoTournament for over 6 months and have run two successful competitions and had excellent interactions with the talented designers on this site during that time. Always without a hitch.
Consequently I have recommended this place to friends, colleagues - tweeted it etc and I know some of them have also come here for their logo's.
So imagine my surprise today that less than 24 hours into a competition (30under30) following my initial ranking I get flamed by an irate designer whom I'd had no previous contact with?
The first message reads:
Subject: wow Im out of this contest
May 16th, 2009, 3:41am
you have the worst taste I ever have seen !! cant believe who you put up top and chose not I unbelievable!!
So I reply:
May 16th, 2009, 3:52am
Thank you for your comments.
We are less than 1 day into a 7 day contest and I'm simply indicating a direction based on the submissions received so far. None of the submissions are even close to what I am looking for and having run 2 successful competitions on this system I think I know what I am doing.
By rejecting certain submissions I provide the design community on this site with an indication of what is not working. By ranking and keeping certain submissions then a good designer will be able to gain an understanding of what is required.
Maybe you just didn't understand the brief - this is commercial design, it's not art. It is for a purpose. If you don't understand this you may be following the wrong career path. Flaming your clients is not an appropriate response.
Have a good day and good luck
Graham
To which they respond:
May 16th, 2009, 3:59am
commercial design, look at what i did and your #1 pick thats all i have to say sorry Im just not for this contest its just conpare to your #1 pick right now is so wack in not at all commercial and i have ben doing this for over 10 years and trust me I know I flaming this contest because looking at your pick I know Im out.
thanks
To be fair to the excited designer they perhaps thought the better of it and followed up with:
May 16th, 2009, 4:04am
sorry thats just how I feel no hard feeling you are the CH you should have what you want sorry Im out of pocket good luck in your contest i guess it just not for me :)
But I must say, emoticon or not, that as a CH and indeed a CH that has come back for multiple contests this sort of behaviour is unacceptable, particularly as I am entering into the spirit of the site by regularly ranking and commenting - which when you're up to over 200 entries takes a considerable amount of time also. I think it also shows a huge lack of respect for the other designers who are part of this community.
If this had been my first experience of LT I would have:
a) closed the contest and demanded a refund
b) told others
What do people think about this?
Graham
Logo Designer
Graham:-)
I totally agree, the designer was unprofessional in his PM to you, and this isn't the norm. Most designers here, really appreciate all the feedback and ranking that you have put into your contest. If this happens in the future, feel free to contact a moderator, as the designer needs to be warned that we do not speak to CH in this way.
I totally agree, the designer was unprofessional in his PM to you, and this isn't the norm. Most designers here, really appreciate all the feedback and ranking that you have put into your contest. If this happens in the future, feel free to contact a moderator, as the designer needs to be warned that we do not speak to CH in this way.
Client
You made the right decision by keeping the contest running. Just as the designer lashed out at you - you need not do the same by pulling out of the contest.
The designer you experienced will need to grow up and become a professional one day. This is one of those stepping stones. He is lucky this is an online situation. The generation who has grown up in the computer age - away from face to face conversations - seem to think they can get away with flaming others because they can walk away without in-person confrontation.
Graham - I'm sorry you had to experience a designer with an attitude. In the real world - there are many of those - and also there are many who are not. I'm not a designer but I have to think it's work that not just a job but the logos are designs that come from a part of themselves - a piece of themselves are on the table. So with that - everyone handles rejection differently.
What happened in my contest was that one designer lashed out and attempted to claim "copy of concept and design". This in turn allowed him to take his case to "Logo Court" - stating that the current #1 designer copied his concept (coincidentally his logo was recently re-ranked from 1st to 3rd). If he received the majority of the votes, the 1st rank design in my contest would be removed and the designer would not be allowed to re-enter my contest. My gut feeling was he lashed out not to me but to other designers because he was upset that his logo may have been dropped out of the "chase".
There are many who handle these situations poorly. Don't be like them....
The designer you experienced will need to grow up and become a professional one day. This is one of those stepping stones. He is lucky this is an online situation. The generation who has grown up in the computer age - away from face to face conversations - seem to think they can get away with flaming others because they can walk away without in-person confrontation.
Graham - I'm sorry you had to experience a designer with an attitude. In the real world - there are many of those - and also there are many who are not. I'm not a designer but I have to think it's work that not just a job but the logos are designs that come from a part of themselves - a piece of themselves are on the table. So with that - everyone handles rejection differently.
What happened in my contest was that one designer lashed out and attempted to claim "copy of concept and design". This in turn allowed him to take his case to "Logo Court" - stating that the current #1 designer copied his concept (coincidentally his logo was recently re-ranked from 1st to 3rd). If he received the majority of the votes, the 1st rank design in my contest would be removed and the designer would not be allowed to re-enter my contest. My gut feeling was he lashed out not to me but to other designers because he was upset that his logo may have been dropped out of the "chase".
There are many who handle these situations poorly. Don't be like them....
Logo Designer
Graham - so sorry you had to deal with a designer like that. some have no respect for this community or the process. i think it's awesome that you rank early and often as a guide for designers. most of us understand how the winds change through a competition and that the early ranks are more like mileposts (though some do go wire to wire!)
thick skin seems to be of utmost importance in a community of 4000 designers. despite the early setback, i hope you finish with the same positive results you've experienced in the past. best of luck to you!
thick skin seems to be of utmost importance in a community of 4000 designers. despite the early setback, i hope you finish with the same positive results you've experienced in the past. best of luck to you!
Logo Designer
Hi Graham please do not think worse of LT just because you had to deal with a ponytail prima donna designer, who needs to grow up, most designers have a good deal of common sense, lets just say should he submit a really good logo the chances of you picking him now are rather slim, what a twit.
Client
Thanks for all the support!
I never considered quitting for the simple reason that I've had such positive interactions in the past with the designers in this community even with those that weren't winning or hadn't won.
I only wanted to raise the matter publicly because this petulant behaviour from one or two designers even on a bad day can affect the livelihood of the community you've created if it is encountered by first time CH's.
Keep up the good work everybody!
G
I never considered quitting for the simple reason that I've had such positive interactions in the past with the designers in this community even with those that weren't winning or hadn't won.
I only wanted to raise the matter publicly because this petulant behaviour from one or two designers even on a bad day can affect the livelihood of the community you've created if it is encountered by first time CH's.
Keep up the good work everybody!
G
Logo Designer
...and also here like the rest of the world, there will always be tools in every bunch.
Client
I had a designer in my contest that tried to disrupt things too. I complained about it and asked for advice in the forms.
Now that it's over, I wish one of the moderators had removed the disruptive comment. It would have made me feel better about the experience.
Now that it's over, I wish one of the moderators had removed the disruptive comment. It would have made me feel better about the experience.
Logo Designer
mods always remove comments that are deemed as being inappropriate, only problem is sometimes they dont see them
Client
i think more so on the net blue, because here you can get away with it
It's ironic that one of my activities is working in digital safety, i.e. prevention of online bullying, cyberstalking, etc. (see http://www.digitalsafety.com - logo developed here!). One of the issues in the digital domain and the perceived anonymity of the net is that it enables a kind of "net rage" similar to other phenomenon's such a "road rage" where people often do and say things that they would never do in a physical world encounter.
Rejection of a proposal isn't the nicest thing that can happen but it's part of everyday life. I spend a lot of time pitching ideas and proposals to clients. My life would be far less challenging and probably boring if they all said yes first time!
:-)
Logo Designer
Active Captain's contest is also a good example of why Logo Tournament is fair to both sides:
Contest Holders AND the Designers.
Moderators-who-are-also-Designers participated in the Active Captain contest, and my one posted comment on that contest (which you can see here: https://logotournament.com/contests/activecaptain ) was not removed by Moderators because it was obviously not deemed disruptive or inappropriate.
My comment was a question that gets asked every week here on logo tournament.
A Moderator tried to assuage Active Captain with a comment right on his own contest (again, see the comment by Moderator SpeedLogo: https://logotournament.com/contests/activecaptain ) but instead Active Captain took it personally and into the Forums where it got completely blown out of proportion.
I feel that Logo Tournament worked in this example because it let both parties (Contest Holder AND Designer) have their say, the Moderators saw all the comments and made their judgment and I know that if I had said something that wasn't true it would have been removed immediately because there were at least 2 well known Moderators following those threads and posting designs in that Contest.
In the end Active Captain got the logo they wanted anyways, and for my own benefit I got a cool logo out of it that, while it did not even rank, I still get compliments on and will stay in my Portfolio.
Contest Holders AND the Designers.
Moderators-who-are-also-Designers participated in the Active Captain contest, and my one posted comment on that contest (which you can see here: https://logotournament.com/contests/activecaptain ) was not removed by Moderators because it was obviously not deemed disruptive or inappropriate.
My comment was a question that gets asked every week here on logo tournament.
A Moderator tried to assuage Active Captain with a comment right on his own contest (again, see the comment by Moderator SpeedLogo: https://logotournament.com/contests/activecaptain ) but instead Active Captain took it personally and into the Forums where it got completely blown out of proportion.
I feel that Logo Tournament worked in this example because it let both parties (Contest Holder AND Designer) have their say, the Moderators saw all the comments and made their judgment and I know that if I had said something that wasn't true it would have been removed immediately because there were at least 2 well known Moderators following those threads and posting designs in that Contest.
In the end Active Captain got the logo they wanted anyways, and for my own benefit I got a cool logo out of it that, while it did not even rank, I still get compliments on and will stay in my Portfolio.
Logo Designer
One of the issues in the digital domain and the perceived anonymity of the net is that it enables a kind of "net rage" similar to other phenomenon's such a "road rage" where people often do and say things that they would never do in a physical world encounter.
having a background in online gaming where you get many a 13 year old keyboard hero i know exactly what you mean
Logo Designer
Grummer there is no sense ganging up on designer..I am sure the matter has been handled with by one of the Mods.
LogoTournament Staff
Flaming CHs is grounds for being banned. In this case the offending designer is currently banned, until an honest apology to the CH.
LogoTournament Staff
The designer in question made an honest apology which the CH has accepted. I have reinstated the designers account. It was just a matter of maybe a little too much passion getting the best of someone at a bad time.
Logo Designer
ponytail prima donna designer.... hit the nail RIGHT on the head!
Bravo Brendan!
Bravo Brendan!
sounds like a woman, no?
Logo Designer
They're getting more than their money's worth on this website.
absolutely. shouldnt we put up the prices on here?!
Logo Designer
HI all it was me Im a pro and no Im not a women I was very sorry for what I did it was late 4 am I had to many budweiser's and I didnt relize the contest had just started. Im a very layback and cool guy anyone who wants to beat up on me can Iam very sorry but Tyler did whip up on me real good but he was fair and I did tell the CH how sorry I was and that will never happen again im not a "ponytail prima donna designer" at all I just love to design
I was up to 4am designing and just loss my mind a warning to other designers get some sleep.
Dave
I was up to 4am designing and just loss my mind a warning to other designers get some sleep.
Dave
Client
.... When designers see a CH who indicates that they aren't open to two-way dialogue, they'll usually avoid entering their contests.
I think this post addressed conversations that were over-aggressive and unacceptable - whether your in the online world or not. There are no excuses for this - the designer needs to own up to the problem, learn from it, and move on.... This has nothing to do with "getting more than your money's worth". Money shouldn't justify bad behavior. Although I agree with someone representing the designer, I will not be the one to stick up for those who do the wrong thing.
My Contest had over 240 entries and the reality is this: Some designers style and look will NOT work with what the customer is expecting. No matter how hard they try - it' not happening... In the brick and mortar world, the customer will say thank you but no thanks and move on. And, that's the beauty of this site because the customer will get to choose from a variety of designer's.
Regarding open two-way conversations - I found in my contest about 50% of the designers will have an open two-way conversation. I'm not sure if it's a language barrier or just the nature of the on-line world. But, I was begging for conversations and open to intelligent dialogue. More often than not - the designers will try to play off of the top 3 designs thinking they would have what I was looking for. But in reality - I wanted to see unique work that represented their individual skills and talent.
Logo Designer
Thats ok Dave you are only human, I think now would be a good time for a group hug.