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I am currently running my first contest on LogoTournament, and for the first week, the experience was great. I was so excited to see so many amazing logos. The last two days of the first week were insane... I jumped from 40-50 submissions to 130, and I couldn't keep up with it. I was fighting to get my colleagues/friends to log in and rank the logos, which all had widely differing opinions from my own.

At the end of the first week, I just couldn't decide, and I chose to extend the contest so I had a bit more time to think it over. After the first 24 hours of the extension period, 40-50% of the logos that were amazing and really making it hard for me to decide just disappear for no reason. The designers withdrew them.

I don't know what the designer interface for this website looks like, but this is a HUGE problem. If designers are withdrawing logos because they have no way of knowing whether a contest ended or whether it was extended, then that's a FLAW IN THE SYSTEM. I thought this week was going to be spent deciding on the great logos I've received, but it is actually going to be just like the first week... providing as much feedback to new designers as I can in order to get the logo I really want.

Blah. Very disappointed.

Hi Bytescape,

Typically when a CH extends a lot of people will pull out because they feel the client is 'jerking them around'....especially when their are a ton of good quality entries. They feel if you can't pick from that selection then you really don't know what you are looking for and they want to move on to other contests. You could have left this in judging instead and used the 7 day judging period to decide, but you may not have known that was an option.

Now I am in NO WAY saying that's what you are doing - I am not trying to insult or disrespect you in any way. Just explaining that there is a history of this here and designers are wary. You can PM those that were your favorites and explain what happened and ask them to resubmit.

I never got to judging. As a matter of fact, I assumed that the moment the contest was over, it would pick the top ranked entry as the final choice. I extended it with 4 hours left in the contest.

The way I see it, a designer should be able to stop providing revisions anytime they please (and guess what? they have... abruptly as a matter of fact). The fact that they can withdraw logos at any time, I think, is a horrible feature. Designers should not be able to withdraw logos until a contest is completed, or at least not be able to withdraw logos that have already been ranked by the CH. That's just rude.

Is there some kind of limitation on how many simultaneous contests a designer can enter? Or how many simultaneous logos a designer can have at the same time? If there is, I can understand the situation a bit better. If not, then withdrawing logos is just a designer's way of taking candy away from a baby. Kinda lame, if you ask me.

As Mgal said when Chs extend the contest designers believe it´s because NON of the entries is "THE" logo. Since we´re only allowed to offer a logo to 1 CH at a time we can withdraw logos that seem Not Interested to a CH, modify it and offer it to another CH or contest matching style/requirements. Basically we think we could have better luck in a new contest than in a contest where CH is not sure about any of the logos he has and extend the contest since our logos SIT in the contest for a week, then for the extension and then during judgment without allowing us to make any profit. This usually happens with non ranked logos or marked NI. I don´t know what reasons could a ranked designer have.

contest extensions are the plague of this site, so it's no surprise that it causes confusion amongst everyone involved.

Just PM the designer you were going to award the contest to and ask them to resubmit. This isn't the only site people work on and they might have just entered the same design somewhere else there was more activity.

bytescape said:

I never got to judging. As a matter of fact, I assumed that the moment the contest was over, it would pick the top ranked entry as the final choice. I extended it with 4 hours left in the contest.

Then this is something that LT should make more clear to the Contest holders. During judging your 1st ranked entry can still enter changes as you request. Not being able to remove entries wouldn't be a good idea from a designers stand point. We own the rights to our designs until we sign the contract with a CH at the close of a contest. Removing our rights to do with our designs as we like would mean less people would be using LT.

Seems like you have an answer to your question from the designers who've already commented, but I'll throw in my two cents:

Extending a contest means extending the time that you are accepting new submissions. That means that if you are overwhelmed with 130 entries to choose from, at the end of 7 more days, you'll have even more logos. If that's what you want, that's great, and you did the right thing. But if you were ready to narrow down your final choice from among what was already submitted, that's what the judging period is for. If you were not educated about the submission phase and judging phase, what they're for, and what extensions mean, then please, please, please send a message to the site administrators about it here: https://logotournament.com/help/contactus. We have been asking for more contest holder education, and it sounds like it would have benefited you and the designers who've entered your contest.

As for designers being able to withdraw logos, I second what was said above. We own the rights to our designs unless and until you pay for them. When a designer works hard at revisions, gets positive feedback and a high rank, and then finds the contest extended for another week, it can be a blow to the ego. And we're a sensitive bunch. Some designers choose to withdraw because they want to reuse what they created in one way or another. There are lots of reasons why we withdraw, actually. And we figure if you're extending the contest, you probably won't be choosing it anyway.

Well, good luck with your contest, and don't hesitate to post questions or concerns here. Also, please do send a message to the administrators. They need to hear from you about this.

First, an update... I "ended my contest early" today after the extension and withdrawal of the logos happened. Fortunately for me, some of my other favorites that came late to the contest stepped up and really added some nice touches to their already winning designs (that I didn't ask them for since I didn't want to come off as if I'm "jerking anyone around"), so I was only tortured by the talent of two designers instead of four or five like it would've been, so I'm pretty pleased in the end with how it all worked out. I am disappointed that I was unaware of the 7 day judging period from the start, and will be sure to send a message to the administrators about it, but I have no ill feelings because I got what I wanted in the end.

Don't get me wrong. As a web developer/designer, I understand where you are all coming from. The designs you create ARE your property, as you said, but I think having a few designs on display for a week or three until the contest is officially ended isn't going to kill anyone. Once the contest is over, THEN you should be allowed to withdraw and reuse whenever, however, and wherever you want. I just think you need to see it from the viewpoint of the contest holder. While the designer is risking their time and effort in the process, the contest holder is risking their money. If a designer has a single concept he's working on for the week and wants to go around selling it to a million different contest holders at the same time, then I wouldn't want to choose that designer because he's already insulted my company by saying it isn't worth a unique concept... especially annoying would be if I could tell that a designer specifically designed a logo so that it would meet the requirements of two simultaneous contests. I am honestly shocked that designers don't see a problem with this.

As a designer, if you don't have a large enough portfolio to mix and match unsold ideas from the past few years to get you through a week or two in other contests until a contest is over, then I don't see how that should be the contest holder's fault. What would happen if the contest holder got past the 30 submission mark (the minimum needed before a refund is no longer available), then all of the designers withdrew their logos and forced him to pick one of his least favorite designs, just because a different contest holder with a higher priced contest came along with the same concepts needed at the same time. It is very unfair to the contest holders that a flaw like this exists, even if it were to never happen that way.

You may all disagree with me, but I feel as though I'm seeing it from both sides... I just don't think there's anything to be lost if the stipulation is in place that you cannot withdraw your logos until the end of the contest.

To make a long story short, the whole thing can be summed up like this: If designers feel they should be allowed to withdraw their logos at any time so they can reuse them in other simultaneous contests, then the contest holder should be allowed to withdraw his money at any time so they can reuse it to go buy a Playstation 3 instead.

This isn't possible, of course, since the site gets a contest holder's money the moment we decide to start a contest, and there seems to be no shortage of people submitting those.

Well, bytescape, i am sure you are more then pleased with your chosen logo and am sure as well you've got plenty of good ones and options to chose from, which you already did and marked your contest complete and walked away with a logo you are pleased to have with your money you put in advance like other hundreds of CH's and many to come, who all walked away happy, came back and open another contests or refereed another friend of theirs to here.

So i just see your last note above, about being able to withdraw to buy a playstation 3 instead isn't much relevant.

Last but not least, all of us designers can have a sneak or look into each designer's comment page and see comments placed by Ch's to that designer, from a look at your couple to ranked and those comments you made to your chosen winner designer, anyone could get the sense and feeling that it is already a closed contest with a chosen winner, so maybe that is why some designers at your contest withdrew on your extension and you stated it obvious to that and other top designers that you just extended for a reason but you are more likely to wrap it up today which you did.

bytescape said:

Don't get me wrong. As a web developer/designer, I understand where you are all coming from. The designs you create ARE your property, as you said, but I think having a few designs on display for a week or three until the contest is officially ended isn't going to kill anyone.

I'm confused as to why you chose to extend the contest instead of letting it enter judging mode? If you were happy with the designs you had received, you have as much time as you need during judging to decide which design to award as the winner. If you wanted more designs to choose from, then extending is the right thing to do.

Let's face it, this is a competition site, and the goal is to win. Producing quality logo design is at the top of the list as well, but when a contest holder has their contest going for 6 days, and in the final hours extends it, that means more time for new designs to enter. More designs means less chance of winning.

It's very frustrating, especially if you're in the top rankings.

Raspy said:

bytescape said:

Don't get me wrong. As a web developer/designer, I understand where you are all coming from. The designs you create ARE your property, as you said, but I think having a few designs on display for a week or three until the contest is officially ended isn't going to kill anyone.

I'm confused as to why you chose to extend the contest instead of letting it enter judging mode? If you were happy with the designs you had received, you have as much time as you need during judging to decide which design to award as the winner. If you wanted more designs to choose from, then extending is the right thing to do.

Let's face it, this is a competition site, and the goal is to win. Producing quality logo design is at the top of the list as well, but when a contest holder has their contest going for 6 days, and in the final hours extends it, that means more time for new designs to enter. More designs means less chance of winning.

It's very frustrating, especially if you're in the top rankings.

He wasn't aware of the judging period. He thought the 1st ranked at closing would automatically be selected as the winner.

Raspy said:

It's very frustrating, especially if you're in the top rankings.

agree...in any circumstances it's very frustrating.

Experienced when I've sent 70 entries with 10 different concepts
and finally defeated when the contest was extended after a week in #1 rank before.
and also when the contest was extended, to anyone who is top ranked at the contest will feel the designs not meet the CH, many examples in which the curiosity of CH, will ruin the contest has been running well.

I haven't read through all the posts, but I felt I would share some brief insight, I'm sure someone else already said it but here it is anyways.

Extending the contest opens the door for new designers to enter.

Generally when a contest is extended it was because the Contest Holder was not happy with any of the designs and wanted to see more and opened the door for new designers.

Judging mode was created to give you time to decide what you liked.

If it looks like your *digital asset* stands no chance at winning a trophy or a ribbon most designers just pull the designs.

Especially if there is no direct feedback, designer is led to believe the contest holder is not interested and its best to just move on.

bytescape said:

To make a long story short, the whole thing can be summed up like this: If designers feel they should be allowed to withdraw their logos at any time so they can reuse them in other simultaneous contests, then the contest holder should be allowed to withdraw his money at any time so they can reuse it to go buy a Playstation 3 instead.

This isn't possible, of course, since the site gets a contest holder's money the moment we decide to start a contest, and there seems to be no shortage of people submitting those.

Withdrawn entries are not counted against the 30 entry rule. Also, admin is happy to extend contests if designers have withdrawn their entries based on a misunderstanding of the client's needs. The withdrawn entries can be requested back. Admin has tried to take a balanced approach in response to this kind of issue which is admittedly rare.

Communication from the client also helps allay designer discontent. Designers are here to make money so they sometimes feel they need to have move designs elsewhere to maximize their possibilities.

Daz said:

Well, bytescape, i am sure you are more then pleased with your chosen logo and am sure as well you've got plenty of good ones and options to chose from, which you already did and marked your contest complete and walked away with a logo you are pleased to have with your money you put in advance like other hundreds of CH's and many to come, who all walked away happy, came back and open another contests or refereed another friend of theirs to here.

Yep, you are absolutely correct. When did I say otherwise?

Daz said:

So i just see your last note above, about being able to withdraw to buy a playstation 3 instead isn't much relevant.

It is relevant. It is EXACTLY the same situation. Everyone is stating that designers feel the need to reuse a design in another contest and can't wait another 7 days or they feel disappointed with how their entry is stacking up in the contest... so they are able to withdraw their logos at any time. What they don't realize is that in the background, there is a whole slew of people the contest holder has invited to rank the logos alongside them, and 90% of those people disagree with the contest holder. In my case, there was one particular logo that EVERYONE had as their first pick, and just because I didn't rank it as such, they withdrew it (I ranked the logos in the order I did because I wanted to show ALL of the designers what my interests were, hoping someone would put out something that both I would like AND would hopefully change the minds of the people I invited). In the end, I probably would've picked it because that's what the masses liked even up to the last minute of the contest... but I never got the chance because the designer decided to get trigger happy with their withdrawal.

Meanwhile, as a contest holder, if I decide that it isn't going well 4 days into it, I can't just withdraw my money and use it on something else that I think will be meaningful. So how exactly is my analogy not relevant to the situation? And before you say anything else, I am not disagreeing with the process. I LIKE that they are locking me into a contract where I am going to be buying a logo... they are forcing me to follow through with what I started. So why aren't designers held to the same policy? Withdrawing logos affects contest holders in the same way withdrawing money would affect the designers.

Daz said:

Last but not least, all of us designers can have a sneak or look into each designer's comment page and see comments placed by Ch's to that designer, from a look at your couple to ranked and those comments you made to your chosen winner designer, anyone could get the sense and feeling that it is already a closed contest with a chosen winner, so maybe that is why some designers at your contest withdrew on your extension and you stated it obvious to that and other top designers that you just extended for a reason but you are more likely to wrap it up today which you did.

Yes, I'm aware that you are able to go around and read comments... I used that to my advantage by doing my best to leave as much feedback to the designers as possible, and I think it helped other designers better understand what I'm looking for. Regardless what you are saying about my comments to the contest winner, you are poorly misinformed. The only comments I made about a "sure winner" were LONG after I made this post on the forum, and after I read mgal's comment here about contest holders "jerking around designers." I wanted to make sure that the only two guys left whose logos I really liked didn't withdraw from the contest like the others, so I told them both that it would be a decision between them, which I kept my promise by making my decision only a few hours later. Get your facts straight before you go around running your mouth.

Raspy said:

I'm confused as to why you chose to extend the contest instead of letting it enter judging mode? If you were happy with the designs you had received, you have as much time as you need during judging to decide which design to award as the winner. If you wanted more designs to choose from, then extending is the right thing to do.

Once again... I was unaware of the judging period. The terms and conditions for a contest holder go like this:

"We require you to select a winner within 7 days of the contest ending. Most clients have a very good idea of who the winner is before the contest ends, so in most cases, the selection deadline is trivial. We allow a 7 day extension of the contest if you need more time or additional entries from the community. If a winner has not been selected within 2 weeks of the contest ending, we will do a final follow-up by email. If there is no response, LogoTournament Support will select a winner and distribute the prize based on existing ranking, existing CH comments and/or community feedback. This policy is rarely initiated but is in place to maintain a high level of Designer confidence and participation in our community. Thank you for understanding this policy."

To me, this meant that I have 7 days to make my decision, or I can extend it for an additional week if I need more time. Nowhere does it say that there is a judging period that follows that will allow me to further refine a logo with a designer, so I figured that extending it was the only choice I had, considering so many designers choose to submit their logos on the last two days of the contest, while others have had time to go back and forth with me to further refine their designs. As Lindsey stated so elegantly in her post above, this is the real problem here. This paragraph needs to at least be revised so a contest holder has better expectations. They make extra sure they warn you about how putting logos in the non-interested box can discourage a designer from continuing in your contest, but they never say that extending the contest is unnecessary when you have logos you like due to a 7 day judging period that follows, and they never say that extending it leads to designers withdrawing all of their great logos.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. I will use this site again in the future because my experience was good... it could've been better, but I know for next time. I just hope no one else has to be surprised as I was.

Well bytescape, am glad to hear you would be using this site in the future and that you had your good experience, no one here was trying to argue with you in a wrong way like you seem to have felt or miss understood.

Usually it is hard to tell how the other person behind the keyboard is like or emotions because all you can see is just typed letters and in most cases it is miss understood the wrong way.

This has two sides, some people are seeing both, some only seeing theirs and missing on the other, and each has his own beliefs and way to look on things from a different perspective.

That shouldn't ruin the whole big picture or the good experience you had.

The site in a way, can't force a designer to leave his entry during the contest, as like mentioned, sometimes others feel they might have a better chance recycling that same design in another new contest, so that would be mainly why they might have withdrew their entries. I can feel ya on why it might upset you as a contest holder and affect a future decision for that logo itself and wasting a chance of it might being chosen a winner, but they never knew or were sure to leave it in there.

That being said, i've had a chance to be a Contest Holder here myself and ran my own successful contest :

https://logotournament.com/contests/art_something

had big amount of entries, i left loads of personal and public feedback and everyone had enjoyed participating in it as well. so i have been in your shoes and seen both sides and i can understand at least why some designers act in their own way at different times. all your fingers are not alike right ?

looking forward to seeing your other new contests here.

Interesting thread. bytescape, thanks for the feedback - Logotournament will be a better place if it can be improved based on feedback like yours.

The fact you were not clear about the judging period is a worry. If this is causing all these contest extensions then the Logotournament needs to reword the information so it's 100% clear.

In the judging phase the Contest Holder can move any entry they like to #1 to enable a designer to upload refinements on the design. So this period is extremely useful to fine tune any, and all, entries that you are favouring.

I hope this is taken on board by Logotournament so in future Contest Holders are really clear about what happens in Judging mode.

I won't comment on the effect a contest extension has - I think everyone has covered that in detail.

Cheers!

Thanks for the feedback. It will be passed on to the owner.

It's all about the level of communication between the Buyer and designer and indeed there is a problem with LT laying out for buyers how things are working with the contest timings and about judging mode.