Forum
Client
Hello everybody,
I've held a Logo contest here which has ended. now I'm in the judging phase of the contest.
However, during the course of the contest the currently #1 ranked design evolved naturally into a logo which show large similarities with another logo.
The basic shape is the Yin Yang symbol which is not copyrighted as far as I know. However the basic shape combined with the colorscheme does bear a remarkable resemblance to an existing logo.
My logocontest is on https://logotournament.com/contests/bold_graphics
The logo which exists can be seen on http://www.cstoncall.com/images/upload/symantec-logo-300dpi.jpg
That logo is copyrighted however I'm not sure what part of it is protected by that copyright.
Anybody has some experience or information on that?
Thanks
Cainnech
I've held a Logo contest here which has ended. now I'm in the judging phase of the contest.
However, during the course of the contest the currently #1 ranked design evolved naturally into a logo which show large similarities with another logo.
The basic shape is the Yin Yang symbol which is not copyrighted as far as I know. However the basic shape combined with the colorscheme does bear a remarkable resemblance to an existing logo.
My logocontest is on https://logotournament.com/contests/bold_graphics
The logo which exists can be seen on http://www.cstoncall.com/images/upload/symantec-logo-300dpi.jpg
That logo is copyrighted however I'm not sure what part of it is protected by that copyright.
Anybody has some experience or information on that?
Thanks
Cainnech
Logo Designer
good question CH,
~ Copyright infringement is the commercial exploitation of another's work.
~ Infringement happens when one uses another's work as reference and the result is SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR.
~ Copyright infringement does not mean identical.
~ Infringement can occur when details are different.
~ Infringement means that an average person looking at the two would see that the 'artistic expression' was copied.
~ 20% change rule is a myth.
----------------------------------------
What is copyright infringement?
Copyright infringement happens whenever someone makes copies or commercially exploits a work without the copyright owner’s permission. The second work must actually be copied from the first work—if you just happen to create a very similar work independently, that is not infringement. The problems arise when one artist uses another artist’s work as reference. To be infringing, the second artist’s works need not be identical. The standard for infringement is whether the second work is “substantially similar” to the original work. (Contrary to popular belief, there is no “20 percent rule,” i.e., you cannot escape infringement by changing something by 20 percent. Infringement is not a mathematical calculation.)
“Substantially similar” means that an average person viewing the two works would recognize that the “artistic expression” in one was copied from the other. The focus on “artistic expression” is meant to distinguish between illegal copying, which is infringement, and being inspired by someone else’s work, which is not illegal. “Artistic expression” means the specific artistic choices and details that go into a work, such as composition, rendering and colors, but not general concepts such as subject matter or similar artistic style. However, courts often describe infringing works as having the same “look and feel” as the originals. Sometimes work depicting similar content in the same unique artistic style are held infringing, even if specific details are different.
Unfortunately, infringement is a common occurrence in the graphic arts. Here are some examples:
A licensee re-uses the work beyond the scope of the license, as in the example above where the magazine adapts the illustration for a column logo.
An illustrator makes a painting from a photograph. Many people think photographs are just factual records, and thus can be freely copied, or that changing the medium is sufficient to avoid infringement. This is not correct. Photographs are fully protected as copyrighted works. If you copy the artistic expression of a photograph, e.g., the choice of subject matter, props, lighting, point of view, composition, etc., you have infringed the copyright in the photograph.
An illustrator copies the unique way another illustrator draws figures.
An ad campaign uses slogans, images and page designs similar to those of another ad campaign.
Many designers are surprised to learn that infringement occurs even when you merely copy someone’s work for intermediate purposes, as in the following examples:
An advertising agency creates a comp using images from an artist’s or photographer’s portfolio. The comp itself is an act of infringement. If the final artwork is substantially similar to the art that was used in the comp, it counts as a second infringement.
An image is digitally copied (e.g., scanned or downloaded) in order to manipulate it with a program like Photoshop. The mere act of making the precursor digital copy counts as a separate act of infringement, regardless of whether the final manipulated image is substantially similar.
http://cpm.aiga.org/legal_issues/copyright-basics-for-graphic-designers
~ Copyright infringement is the commercial exploitation of another's work.
~ Infringement happens when one uses another's work as reference and the result is SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR.
~ Copyright infringement does not mean identical.
~ Infringement can occur when details are different.
~ Infringement means that an average person looking at the two would see that the 'artistic expression' was copied.
~ 20% change rule is a myth.
----------------------------------------
What is copyright infringement?
Copyright infringement happens whenever someone makes copies or commercially exploits a work without the copyright owner’s permission. The second work must actually be copied from the first work—if you just happen to create a very similar work independently, that is not infringement. The problems arise when one artist uses another artist’s work as reference. To be infringing, the second artist’s works need not be identical. The standard for infringement is whether the second work is “substantially similar” to the original work. (Contrary to popular belief, there is no “20 percent rule,” i.e., you cannot escape infringement by changing something by 20 percent. Infringement is not a mathematical calculation.)
“Substantially similar” means that an average person viewing the two works would recognize that the “artistic expression” in one was copied from the other. The focus on “artistic expression” is meant to distinguish between illegal copying, which is infringement, and being inspired by someone else’s work, which is not illegal. “Artistic expression” means the specific artistic choices and details that go into a work, such as composition, rendering and colors, but not general concepts such as subject matter or similar artistic style. However, courts often describe infringing works as having the same “look and feel” as the originals. Sometimes work depicting similar content in the same unique artistic style are held infringing, even if specific details are different.
Unfortunately, infringement is a common occurrence in the graphic arts. Here are some examples:
A licensee re-uses the work beyond the scope of the license, as in the example above where the magazine adapts the illustration for a column logo.
An illustrator makes a painting from a photograph. Many people think photographs are just factual records, and thus can be freely copied, or that changing the medium is sufficient to avoid infringement. This is not correct. Photographs are fully protected as copyrighted works. If you copy the artistic expression of a photograph, e.g., the choice of subject matter, props, lighting, point of view, composition, etc., you have infringed the copyright in the photograph.
An illustrator copies the unique way another illustrator draws figures.
An ad campaign uses slogans, images and page designs similar to those of another ad campaign.
Many designers are surprised to learn that infringement occurs even when you merely copy someone’s work for intermediate purposes, as in the following examples:
An advertising agency creates a comp using images from an artist’s or photographer’s portfolio. The comp itself is an act of infringement. If the final artwork is substantially similar to the art that was used in the comp, it counts as a second infringement.
An image is digitally copied (e.g., scanned or downloaded) in order to manipulate it with a program like Photoshop. The mere act of making the precursor digital copy counts as a separate act of infringement, regardless of whether the final manipulated image is substantially similar.
http://cpm.aiga.org/legal_issues/copyright-basics-for-graphic-designers
Client
yes i have had a designer query a similar situation with some of the designs in my contest.
what should a contest holder do when this happens?.
the contest is ended and all i have to do is award the winner but with this question hanging i would like to know what i should do.?.
please help.
Tyson.
what should a contest holder do when this happens?.
the contest is ended and all i have to do is award the winner but with this question hanging i would like to know what i should do.?.
please help.
Tyson.
Logo Designer
make sure your logo not contain any commercial license art or copyright matter
to avoid any accusation from who have the copyright,
and winning designer is responsible for wholly original work and was not copied in PART or whole from an existing Logo or work or otherwise violates any intellectual property law or any other law or right belonging to a third party. The designer/vendor represents that they are the sole author or owner of the Logo, and that the Logo does not violate any patents, trademarks, service or copyrights of another person, form, or entity.
you can contact admin to make it more clear.
to avoid any accusation from who have the copyright,
and winning designer is responsible for wholly original work and was not copied in PART or whole from an existing Logo or work or otherwise violates any intellectual property law or any other law or right belonging to a third party. The designer/vendor represents that they are the sole author or owner of the Logo, and that the Logo does not violate any patents, trademarks, service or copyrights of another person, form, or entity.
you can contact admin to make it more clear.
Logo Designer
Symantec is a promotional client of mine here in Cupertino (their HQ too). They are very particular about their logo especially the colors - it would not be as bad if the colors were not so close.
Maybe ask for a modification of the designer's entry so it is not quite as close to Symantec's logo. You can request modifications in judging mode of the #1 ranked designer. He should be able to keep the look you like and change it enough so there is no concern about this.
Maybe ask for a modification of the designer's entry so it is not quite as close to Symantec's logo. You can request modifications in judging mode of the #1 ranked designer. He should be able to keep the look you like and change it enough so there is no concern about this.
Logo Designer
the yin yang symbol itself cannot be copyrighted as its in the public domain. Symantecs logo incorporates an S into it, making it theirs, and copyrightable. If members of the general public can confuse your logo for Symantecs, or if they assume your logo is a department of symantecs or is affiliated with them, then you definitely have a legal problem. Perhaps rotating the yin yang symbol 45 degrees and changing the yellow color will be best.
Logo Designer
I note that the TM mark follows the word SYMANTEC and that there is not separate mark for the icon itself which leads me to suppose it's the two (icon and wordmark) together which is the basis of the tm registration. It may well be, however, that they have another registration application in place to cover each part separately. In any event, it is clear to me that all things considered (colours, proportion, orientation, placement), there is too much similarity between the icons themselves both in terms of potential legal consequence as well as the more practical issue of brand recognition and utility.
Because the yin/yang itself is such a generic graphic, it is likely the registration office would dis-allow it or, if they were to allow it, it would need a clearly distinguishing feature which, in this case, is clearly not colour and orientation. I would request the designer make changes to the icon. I would further consider registering the wordmark separately since that portion of the overall design is distinctive and would likely hold up to the registration process. You could then ensure that the two portions of your brand (modified icon and wormark) are generally seen together or wordmark as a stand-alone, but not the icon.
Because the yin/yang itself is such a generic graphic, it is likely the registration office would dis-allow it or, if they were to allow it, it would need a clearly distinguishing feature which, in this case, is clearly not colour and orientation. I would request the designer make changes to the icon. I would further consider registering the wordmark separately since that portion of the overall design is distinctive and would likely hold up to the registration process. You could then ensure that the two portions of your brand (modified icon and wormark) are generally seen together or wordmark as a stand-alone, but not the icon.
LogoTournament Staff
The best solution is to have a trademark lawyer look at your proposed choices. I am sure there are a variety of factors to consider aside from yin-yang and color.
The logo referenced is not the same structurally but I could see how it could be confused.
The logo referenced is not the same structurally but I could see how it could be confused.
Logo Designer
It's not about the copyright but about the fact that your company can be confused with Symantec - colors and symbolism. And that's something what Symantec could invoke in a law case and they will win.
But why stumble upon a Ying-Yang symbol when the world is so creative? You should be more open to new and not so overused ideas.
But why stumble upon a Ying-Yang symbol when the world is so creative? You should be more open to new and not so overused ideas.
Logo Designer
Crowd sourcing sites such as LT do not have trademark facility in place to handle this issue..however LT has a self monitoring system which is not a replacement for trademark searches. but it does help prevent those who do try and pass off an existing logo design as original work.
to truly be clear of trademark violation design agencies are the best option however, they would have the resources to delve deeper in to trademarking a design
there a re many of us who do some research but it's very basic but even thats not enough. A google search is a good start to see what is out there...example
to search for a industry logo such a Stone and Tile Flooring simple type in
"stone and tile flooring logo images"
this will turn a a number of possible company logo images...as mentioned this is not a fool proof check it is a starting place only one that many of use on LT use to the benefit of LT and worst to copy exisiting work because certain members are to lazy or do not have the skill sets.
to truly be clear of trademark violation design agencies are the best option however, they would have the resources to delve deeper in to trademarking a design
there a re many of us who do some research but it's very basic but even thats not enough. A google search is a good start to see what is out there...example
to search for a industry logo such a Stone and Tile Flooring simple type in
"stone and tile flooring logo images"
this will turn a a number of possible company logo images...as mentioned this is not a fool proof check it is a starting place only one that many of use on LT use to the benefit of LT and worst to copy exisiting work because certain members are to lazy or do not have the skill sets.